[AoC CS] Ladder Overhaul Discussion

 [VCOM]Barry_


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Edited 28 March 2015 - 8:07 pm by [VCOM]Barry_
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Ladder Overhaul Discussion

Contents:


An Overview of the Changes Planned


As part of the continued efforts by the staff to improve the entire voobly experience, we have seen the astronomical rise of RM. Some in the custom scenario community have accused us of ignoring them and doing nothing for the lobby. This is not the case, we have been plotting this latest change for the last four months.

The random ladder revolutionised the CS lobby by introducing players to the diverse pool of maps out there to enjoy as an alternative to CBA. As well as this, it has served as a testing ground for adjusted ELO settings for team games. The success of this trial has allowed me to move ahead and propose that we take the next step and revamp the CBA and CBA Hero ladders. There are three steps to the plan. I will go into more detail later in the post. First I will explain why we want to make these changes.

The competitive side of CBA has died off in the last few years as the rating system has encouraged people to avoid challenges and simply play to win more points instead of having a fun game. These changes won't affect the average player in lower rated games too much, though the boost feature should ensure you don't get noob bashed by 'Smurfs' quite as often.

This plan aims to make the ladders a little more accurate. We want good players to be able to challenge at the top of the ladder and not lose out simply because another person is willing to win a point at a time against low rated players. This is our goal, read on to find out how we do this.

Adjusted Points For Team Games

One of the biggest complaints about the CBA and CBA Hero ladders has been the exaggerated rates of some of the players in the ladder. An active expert at these maps can be anything from 2300 - 2500 in rate. This is prohibitive to competitive games at that level as inactive players will be decayed down to 2000. Add to this the fact that an upcoming player will have to go all the way from 1600 to 2200 to be close to them and you can see that it is ludicrous.

The adjusted team game algorithm, which has been implemented both in RM and in the CS - Random ladder, is the key to fixing this flawed system. The RM - Team Games ladder was similiar in terms of numbers before the change was implemented. As you can see in this screenshot, the main page is much more competitive and also accessible to rising stars. The top rate is now 2200 which is far more reasonable than insane rates above 2500.



The same applies to CS - Random. The ratings of skilled players is far closer than it was in previous incarnations of the ladder. As you can see, there is a genuine competition for places on the top 20.

Here are a few match links to show the adjusted points totals in action:
http://www.voobly.com/match/view/12152374
http://www.voobly.com/match/view/12152355
http://www.voobly.com/match/view/12156800

New Player Boost

The second part of the plan for helping to improve CS ladders is the new player boost. This setting will triple the points won, or lost, in the first three games on any ladder. The player(s) that they are playing against will not be affected by this boost. The player will reach a true rating faster than normal and thus not disrupt the rating system too much. This is aimed primarily at experts who create new accounts to play lower skilled players. This will obviously only work in ladders where there is only one map rated. This would not work in Random or Casual for example.

Decay Settings

The final piece of the jigsaw is already in place in the CS ladders. It would be set to a different configuration to aid the work of the adjusted team rate system. See below:

Decay 50 points every 7 days down to 1999 for a period of 6 weeks

After this period the settings would be changed to the following:

Decay 25 points every 14 days down to 1900


Need more convincing?


Should my amazing thread creating skills fail to wow you, here are a few other threads that are related to this topic. I advise reading the original RM thread as it has actual numbers for you to read. Numbers!

ELO algorithm for CS [Stryker]
Taff Post in the thread above
Update to the TG rating algorithm in Medieval Siege
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 [VCOM]Barry_


Group: Voobly Promoter
Join Date: 30 July 2011
Posts:2592
Edited 28 March 2015 - 8:07 pm by [VCOM]Barry_
Discussion: How To
This is a discussion thread.
The topic is proposed changes to the CS ladders.


Q: What can I post?
Constructive responses. If you reject the changes, do so with a reasoned argument.

Q: What can't I post?
One line responses, smiley posts, trolling of any kind, aggressive posts and any post by Dan
[one line responses including a previous quoted post are ok]
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 [Eot_]Marvel__


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Edited 23 March 2015 - 8:41 am by [Eot_]Marvel__
Ah, it's this time of year again..

The yearly 'let's save CS' thread.


CS is fine as it is, and is better than ever (thanks in large part to random ladder so thank you for that barry). Leave it alone, it doesn't need changing, constantly ****ing around with it will not help, random ladder was a great change.. the constant ****ing with it is not.

Also CBA is at the highest level it's been at, so i'm not sure how 'competitive cba is dead'
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 iLLyRiaN_


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Posted 23 March 2015 - 8:37 am
is there going to be a reset? if so, it would be great...
Quote:
After this period the settings would be changed to the following:

Decay 25 points every 14 days down to 1900

Decay 25 points every 21 days down to 1900

what about this? 14 days is a short time to force you play a map...
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 [ViCiouS]Marauder


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Posted 23 March 2015 - 9:31 am
Ah, it's this time of year again..

The yearly 'let's save CS' thread.


CS is fine as it is, and is better than ever (thanks in large part to random ladder so thank you for that barry). Leave it alone, it doesn't need changing, constantly ****ing around with it will not help, random ladder was a great change.. the constant ****ing with it is not.

Also CBA is at the highest level it's been at, so i'm not sure how 'competitive cba is dead'

Cmon rick......how can you be against adjusted elo?

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 [VCOM]Barry_


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Posted 23 March 2015 - 9:49 am
Also CBA is at the highest level it's been at, so i'm not sure how 'competitive cba is dead'

Why do I have several CBA players begging me daily to get this added then? Be honest here. You smurf 16/17x games in CBA Hero. This is part of the problem we have.
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 [Eot_]Marvel__


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Edited 23 March 2015 - 10:14 am by [Eot_]Marvel__
Why do I have several CBA players begging me daily to get this added then? Be honest here. You smurf 16/17x games in CBA Hero. This is part of the problem we have.
It's mostly 18+ (most of the time the game is capped at 17+ and we'll play anyone, and we only let 16+ in if we're waiting a really long time for a game, so just stop)but this isn't about me so idk why you are trying to pick on me, i'm not talking about hero, i'm talking about CBA, there aren't many good teams in CBA Hero and it's not really possible to get games on our 'real' names. There are 2k+ games daily in regular CBA and the skill level is higher then it has been for quite a long time so IDK where you're getting this from.

Who specifically says competitive CBA has died of? I find it highly surprising if any good CBA player has said that to be honest, CBA skill is really high right now. There are high level CBA games daily with huge amounts of spectators. OFC I could be proven wrong, but i just don't see it at all myself
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 [_A]Faravahar


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Posted 23 March 2015 - 10:13 am
It's neither wanted nor needed in CS, if anything this will encourage smurfing because it will be impossible to gain points once you reach a certain rating. This system also favours 1v1, if you play TG with a high rate you will lose all the points if your team loses.
Why do you think this would bring a "competitive side" back to CBA? CBA TG's haven't become less competitive, there may be less high level CBA games because most top level players are playing other maps as well now like the random ladder but CBA is played at a lot higher level now than even a couple of years ago.
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 [VCOM]Barry_


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Posted 23 March 2015 - 10:25 am
It's neither wanted nor needed in CS, if anything this will encourage smurfing because it will be impossible to gain points once you reach a certain rating. This system also favours 1v1, if you play TG with a high rate you will lose all the points if your team loses.
Why do you think this would bring a "competitive side" back to CBA? CBA TG's haven't become less competitive, there may be less high level CBA games because most top level players are playing other maps as well now like the random ladder but CBA is played at a lot higher level now than even a couple of years ago.

1. This system is designed to stop smurfing and it will highlight noob bashers via the boost system.

2. If you noob bash a 1v1 you will be breaking the rules. If you don't you can lose 20+ points if you are playing good players anyway. The highest rate is going to eventually drop. You can still battle for #1 in the ladder, it just means you won't need to go as far as 2500 as a team game player.

3. Higher level does not equate to competitive level. Blood players are better now but bloods were far more competitive ten years ago.
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 [_A]Faravahar


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Posted 23 March 2015 - 10:35 am
1. This system is designed to stop smurfing and it will highlight noob bashers via the boost system.
How does it discourage smurfing in any way? People smurf because they get to a high rate and then get bored because they aren't getting points any more, if points are made impossible to gain at a certain level then logically people are going to smurf more.
2. If you noob bash a 1v1 you will be breaking the rules. If you don't you can lose 20+ points if you are playing good players anyway. The highest rate is going to eventually drop. You can still battle for #1 in the ladder, it just means you won't need to go as far as 2500 as a team game player.
As long as I play 1v1's where my rate isn't skewed by taking all the majority of point losses for my team my rating isn't going to drop, high rated TGers rate will drop immediately unless they win 90% of their games.
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 [VCOM]Barry_


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Edited 23 March 2015 - 10:39 am by [VCOM]Barry_
As long as I play 1v1's where my rate isn't skewed by taking all the majority of point losses for my team my rating isn't going to drop, high rated TGers rate will drop immediately unless they win 90% of their games.

This is the very point of the changes. 1v1ers will always be top if they want to be.

The ratings will become closer. A guy 300 points higher than the rest will lose points until there is a bunch of them with similiar rates. Cheating the decay will be punished.
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 [Eot_]Marvel__


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Edited 23 March 2015 - 10:43 am by [Eot_]Marvel__
Really, you made some good changes to CS. But, right now, CS is as good as it's been for probably 5 years, so why does it need ****ing around with further? Just give it 6 months of not ****ing with it and see. This is the CS problem, we make some good changes, but then we have to keep making more and more changes till we **** it up.
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 vk@voobly


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Posted 23 March 2015 - 10:46 am
@Damian

http://www.voobly.com/ladder/view/Age-of-Empires-II-The-Conquerors/RM-Team-Games

Take a look at this top 20 and it's competitiveness. New faces can finally rise which is way more accurate to players current form instead of having lots of inactive names. Works just fine in Voobly's No1 lobby so I can't think of any reason it shouldn't work for Cs.
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 obi11


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Posted 23 March 2015 - 11:12 am
lul @ CBA arguments. CBA is almost dead, simple as that. Do not let the last tournament fool you, the activity now compared to one year ago, is just plain trash. If I want to play a decent 19++ game, first i have to log in specific time, wait about 3 hours and rely on the very same 10-12 players to be online.

Now back on this topic, I would love to see this new ELO in CS, basically to stop people from caring so much about the points, and just to play for decent quality games. It makes no sense being 2k5 rating in any ladder, when 2k3 2k4 2k5 in TGs basically the same level.

The decay suggestion looks very aggressive for me, I think decay as it is now, is ok, not need for tweaking. It already did it's job of removing people from the top 20 that never played again on their accounts, and heavily diminished people from switching to 2nd accounts/smurfs.

The last thing I would like to say about CS... REMOVE almost all CS Game Advisor except for nhoobish and Marauder. I never see any of them posting or trying to help CS anyhow, what's their actual job? It actually pisses me off seeing Masta working alone to improve CS and then getting hate, when there are many Game Advisor doing nothing but jerking off. Most worthless title ever /rant
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 [I3acI]MindCraft


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Edited 23 March 2015 - 11:23 am by [I3acI]MindCraft
i found the decay idea is stupid
cuz humain will resist anyone force him to do somthing thats in our nature iven if u make decay 200 points evry week it only make it worst and worst cuz pll will resist more
no one likes to be told to do somthing better remove decay i know u think it solve problem but u cause bigger one.
that is my opinion ;flowers


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